A Response to a Tradcon

I first read this article late in 2017!

The Red Pill Movement (MGTOW): Men Waking Up as Loners

It’s not very often that I’ll do a response to someone who’s Anti-MGTOW because in all honesty unless the person is Red Pilled they either can’t or won’t be able to grasp the points of MGTOW or the Red Pill even if you say it to right to their face. You’re either awake, (not woke I’m not going anywhere near that SJW term) or not. There’s not really any transition between the two.

But Lee Woofenden you easily wrote one of the most insulting, ignorant and self-righteous blogs about MGTOW that I’ve come across. You pretty it up and there are some points for consideration in there. The only problem is ASSHOLE is that you spiced those points with shame and a tone that only a religious bigot could accomplish.

So here’s what I’m going to do. I’m going to tear down your article, but not in the way you might expect. You see your blog was so insulting that you don’t really even deserve to be proven wrong. What I’m going to do is talk to the crowd and to my fellow MGTOW and Red Pill men so they may best learn how to deal with someone like you in the future.

Not going over to your blog to reply to you there. You have a problem with me you take it to my comments. Just remember YOU chose to write what you wrote so if my language and opinions about what you wrote comes across as harsh or unforgiving well you can pray to your non-existent sky deity for guidance.

And Oh yes let’s just get this out of the way for starters I’m an Atheist and there is no God, no Lucifer either.

So let’s get started on this sanctimonious blather

The first couple of paragraphs are just intro we can ignore them. Doesn’t take this guy long to go off the rails.

“If you spend any time reading MGTOW websites and forums, you’ll find them populated largely by men who have had hellaciously bad experiences in their relationships with women, and who have decided to opt out. Some continue to have one-night stands with women or use the services of prostitutes in order to satisfy their sex drive. Others “go monk” and become celibate. In this community, men actually brag about being virgins.

Needless to say, PUAs despise MGTOW as Dorito-munching, mother’s-basement-dwelling losers who are sad and lonely because they could never get a girl. And MGTOW despise PUAs as preening, hormone-driven pretty boys whose whole life revolves around the women they despise.”

Well, imagine that folks, we as a group have had bad experiences with women. We have anger and toxic feelings to process. But somehow this stunned fucking idiot equates that with “We despise women”.

Right there we know this just doesn’t get it! Somehow this idiot doesn’t get that anger needs to be vented. Of course, because Lee here is such an epic cuck he views this as despising women. Apparently, this guy has had such a tranquil life that he doesn’t grasp that anger and pain need to be processed and vented in a safe place. You as a MGTOW going through the Red Pill Rage process are perfectly entitled to vent as much as you feel you need to. A man going through this process needs the time and space to process these feelings. To anyone third party reading this no I don’t especially care if you think those feelings are valid or not. There are MGTOW that are mentally ill or damaged beyond recovery, those men are not the ones you roll out as examples for all MGTOW. Something that Lee does later on in this blog. Now if they remain stuck there then you have a problem anger though once expressed tends to burn itself out pretty fast.

“And MGTOW as a group do despise women.

These Red Pill men have woken up, not so much as losers, but as loners.”

Anger tends to happen when your boundaries have been violated. Let me make this clear to you MGTOW brothers. Being angry at the women that have done whatever they did to you is a legitimate feeling. It doesn’t mean that you hate all women, yes you have had experiences that have caused you to feel the need to be extremely careful around them. And in some cases, you’d prefer to even avoid them as much as possible. That doesn’t equate to despising them no matter how much ignorant assholes like Lee say it does. Now you as healthy person can put that anger behind you and move on. What I’ve discovered about trauma recently is that you never really “Get over it” what really happens is that you process it, learn from it and move on. Now if that process requires you to say things in anger then so be it. That’s what the forums are there for. Something here that Lee either can’t or won’t get.

“Most of them had their brush with women, got burned—sometimes quite badly—and decided that it’s better not to play with fire.

And if a man wants to be single, that’s certainly his choice. There have been single men throughout the ages. Some of them have done great things.

Of course and you know what that’s my and your choice as a MGTOW to make.

The problem is not so much in their deciding to become single, but in their intense disdain for and even hatred of women, and in their blaming women for all of their problems as men.”

Seriously you have got to LOVE how trad-con assholes like this intentionally ignore the other issues that have nothing to do with women. If you’re like me and have gone through the Red Pill Rage then you know that women by themselves are not the problem. Women have always been women it’s the current culture and laws have taken the worst aspects of women and allowed them to flourish. Now it really beats the hell out of me how Lee here could be so damn thick that he didn’t figure this out but well what do you expect from this guy? And here’s the catcher we’re just a couple of paragraphs into this drivel. Of course, I already know Lee’s next argument “But there are men like this”

Yeah, Lee! Stick that Straw Man where the sun doesn’t shine!

“Once more, as with the first article in this series, “The Red Pill Movement (MRA): Men Waking Up as Victims,” and the second, “The Red Pill Movement (PUA): Men Waking Up as Animals,” we won’t spend time describing the MGTOW community. You can get the basic idea from Wikipedia’s MGTOW article.”

Actually the Wikipedia MGTOW article got slaughtered after it first came out. The Wikipedia article mentions manginas like Mack Lameroux as a source for MGTOW when in fact his total research for this article consisted of looking at some rather biased sources and a short interview with Walking Away Man. How do I know this? Because I INTERVIEWED the man in the VICE article myself. Here it is for you to enjoy

The MGTOW movement has also gone through some changes over the years since it first identified itself in the early 2000s. For the “old school” view, see the blog “NO MA’AM” (now apparently inactive) and the original “MGTOW Manifesto”—which lacks the later hostility against women and the “marriage strike” that characterizes much of the MGTOW community today. Today’s MGTOW community is represented on the blog and forums at MGTOW.com and in the MGTOW subreddit at Reddit.com.”

“For men in the MGTOW community, these websites are breezy island havens from a hostile, gynocentric, man-hating world. For people not in the MGTOW community, they commonly look more like festering swamps of misogynistic bigotry.”

MGTOW moved past the original founders a LONG time ago Lee. People like Barbarosa, Spetsnaz, Thinking Ape and few others moved it to the next level. This tends to happen to movements. What happened with NO MA’AM” is no longer all the relevant. But well as we go along we’ll see here that Lee has his ass shoved so far up religious trad-con dogmas ass that he’ll never see that

Refer back to the need for men to have the space to process their feelings. But well if people like Lee had their way we’d all be walking emotional bombs. I have to openly wonder how many people are alive now because men have this place as opposed to acting out or dying on the inside from anger. Seriously Lee fuck you for even trying to shame men like this.

AWALT?

“In fact, one of the core dogmas of the Red Pill movement generally, and MGTOW specifically, is represented by the acronym “AWALT.” Here’s how it is defined at the RationalWiki’s slightly satirical “Manosphere glossary” (which is worth reading for its entertainment value alone):”

Well, I don’t know about you but I’m not here for Lee’s entertainment. Anyone that’s been around for a while that Red Pill and MGTOW are no more synonymous than MGTOW and MRA. There is overlap that doesn’t mean that they’re the same thing. Clearly, Lee never went over to the Red Pill Subreddit because if he had he’d know that The Red Pill Subreddit has very little to do with MGTOW. In fact, based on personal experience there that subreddit is quite hostile to MGTOW. In fact, Lee if you had bothered you’d have noticed that the Red Pill Subreddit is more of a PUA site than a MGTOW affiliation. I stopped posting my content there because the amount of ignorant content about MGTOW was staggering.

But here’s the basic definition of the Red Pill for you.

AWALT

If you go into a MGTOW forum and say, “Not all women are like that!” (which has its own acronym: NAWALT), you will quickly be shouted down as an infidel and a heretic. AWALT is ex cathedra. It’s an established article of faith. You’re not allowed to question it.

And the MGTOW sites and forums are full of fervent testimonials to AWALT.

I don’t know about you but whenever I’ve used NAWALT at these sites I’ve never been angrily shouted down. I’m going to have to surmise that Lee here went all White Knight and used the same assinine condescending language at these sites that he used on his blog. Now if he’d done that there then yes absolutely you’ll get shouted down. Gotta point out here given what I’ve read so far that if I were a gambler I’d put money on that. Well, let’s just go back here. MGTOW especially the ones that have gone through the red pill rage, know that women aren’t the issue they’re a symptom. Just like how MGTOW is a reaction to this situation

See, for example, the article “Comments from Married Men” at MGTOW.com. It extracts comments from one of its forums on that subject, arranging them in nine sections that have no immediately discernible thematic organization. But the overall theme and message is crystal clear: DON’T BE AN IDIOT LOSER AND GET MARRIED!You’ll regret it every single day for the rest of your life!!!

You’ll regret it because the very second you slip the wedding ring onto her finger, your fun, intelligent, gorgeous, sex-loving soulmate will instantly transform into a fat, lazy, whining, nagging bitch who will never have sex with you again. The day after the wedding she will quit her job and flop down on the couch in front of the TV with a Dove Bar in each fist while simultaneously spending all of your money on plastic crap at Walmart and threatening to clean you out of everything you own if you don’t work 80 hours a week to feed her insatiable desire for clothing, shoes, jewelry, and a much bigger house than this hovel we live in.

Read ’em and weep!

Of course, it’s a self-selecting group. Men in happy marriages don’t go to MGTOW forums on the Internet and recount in lurid detail exactly how execrably atrocious their wife or ex-wife is.

But for those men who do have the misfortune of marrying a captivating young beauty who in the harsh light of the morning turns out to be a lazy, gold-digging harpy, the experience can be so traumatizing that when they see or think “woman,” that image of woman completely fills their field of vision. Nothing else exists.

And so they console one another: “AWALT, man!”

We already know that this can and does happen. Literally, every male I know and that I’ve discussed this with knows of at least one man that this is happening to. Lee here much like that idiot Brad Wilcox intentionally ignores this problem.

MGTOW.com Comments from Married Men isn’t a testimonial to all men everywhere that this is guaranteed to happen. But if you’re so thick to think that it can’t happen then well that’ll be on you not MGTOW. Lee here intentionally frames this is a section where bitter, angry men vent about their failures. Not what that section is supposed to be a road sign MGTOW

This is a warning, that this can happen. You can be the perfect husband and on a whim thanks to no-fault divorce you run a risk of having your entire life taken apart by a misandrist and corrupt family law system. Both Lee and Brad Wilcox intentionally ignore this. Which is why we as MGTOW need to intentionally ignore them. Need more proof this a link to Divorce Corp.

Now factor this in with what you’ll read at MGTOW.com and you’d have to at the absolute least think really hard about ever getting married in this current cultural climate.

 

Lee here then goes on to use ONE EXAMPLE and projects this as an example for all MGTOW

The fully realized MGHOW

Here is the abridged testimonial of a successful MGHOW from the above-linked article:

Thanks to going to bed at 5:30AM after a relaxing night of surfing the internet and watching porn, I slept in a little bit late this morning. It was actually the afternoon – 12:25PM to be exact – when I finally sat up in bed, yawning and scratching my big bachelor nuts. . . .

So, anyway, I’m up at half-twelve. I had a nice cigarette whilst checking my e-mails. Then I had a coffee and another cigarette whilst playing a bit of Soldier of Fortune II until I got bored of shooting virtual people’s virtual brains out. A nice big fry-up followed. Mmmm… sausages and bacon. . . . Come two o’clock and I’m down at the local supermarket. I bought some booze, hamburgers, potatoes, bacon and waffles. I also bought some pizza that, right at this moment in time, I’m currently stuffing into my mouth. Munch munch. I’m also currently watching Beavis & Butthead. I downloaded a few episodes via BitTorrent the other day. It’s not even six and I’m pleasantly drunk, eating pizza and watching some great comedy. What’s planned for this evening? I’ll probably have a nice relaxing bath and read Viz whilst I’m soaking in the tub. Then I’ll probably have a few more glasses of wine and watch some of the many South Park and The Simpsons episodes that are lying around the Hard Drives of my five computers. Also, I’ve just reinstalled Deus Ex and I’d like to play some of that too. Who knows what the future may bring? Whatever I want it to, that’s what.

Are we supposed to be impressed?

We’re not here to fucking impress you or your Trad-con stooges Lee! Don’t care if you’re impressed or not. Granted I personally think living this way is a waste of time. But well that’s his choice to make not yours. And there was a period like this for me, I thought it was time wasted until I got to where I was now. I now see that period in my life allowed me the time to figure out where I was going. Such a process cannot be forced they get there when they get there. And when MGTOW get on to the other side just remember that we’re still not required to kiss Lee’s ass. He, however, is quite welcome to kiss mine.

As I was reading through this rambling Paean to the Modern Neanderthal Man, it actually started to get funny. I started thinking: This is just too perfect! Maybe the joke’s on us. Maybe this was written as a satirical caricature of a MGHOW. Maybe it will end with the punch line, “Hello, my name is ____, and I’m a MGTOW loser. But at least I don’t have to deal with a nagging bitch of a wife!”

But no, he was serious. He ended with this:

If I was married I would probably be standing in a stupid department store right now, looking at my watch and tutting whilst the wife decides which dress she’s only going to wear once she wants to buy with my money! But I’m not married. I’m an eternal bachelor. To put it another way, I’m eternally happy and free.

“Eternally happy and free” to do what? Totally waste your life?

Yes, my subheading is satirical. I’m well aware that there have been and still are many single men who do great things with their lives. And I’m sure there are many decent and productive men in the MGTOW community.

But with “testimonials” like that, is it any wonder that MGTOW have gotten a reputation for being Dorito-munching, mom’s-basement-dwelling losers?

Again you take as much time as you need to figure out who and what you are. It’s not Lee’s place here to tell you what you need to do or what you should be. Remember men the laws and cultural climate are stacked against us. This is a call for us to return to the plantation and pick up the yoke. But seriously why the hell would we want to, where’s the payoff? I already know Lee would like to pull out some Jesus crap or that you get to live your life a productive person. I LIVE as a productive person. You decide or have decided what’s best for you. The image isn’t important because we all know that MGTOW is a reaction and this reaction includes a checking out component. This component is essential if you’re going to figure yourself out. Maybe you need to exist as a minimalist for a few years to get there. It’s not Lee’s call to make, and quite frankly I don’t give a damn what MGTOW’s image is. The current system does more to promote MGTOW than anything you’ll say against it.

Oh yeah, that’s right with assholes like you what I’m saying is just conspiracy theory right? Yeah well go watch the Red Pill Movie and get back to me. Still going to be MGTOW when you’re finished.

AWALT is no excuse for LOSER

Okay, “LOSER” isn’t really an acronym for anything in the Red Pill movement.

But many of these Red Pill men, including a disproportionate percentage of MGTOW, have come to the conclusion that their life sucks and that it’s all because of those horrible, horrible females.

So once again I’ll say to Red Pill men: Stop blaming women for your problems. It’s not manly. And it gets you nowhere.

God damn, I can’t even remember how many times I’ve said this already. Women are a SYMPTOM, not the cause. Women have always been women. How about you get off your stool and get honest and look at the situation instead of using shaming language you EPIC CUCK!

If you’ve hitched yourself to a woman who tears you down and sucks you dry, then, by all means, do what’s necessary to extricate yourself from the situation. Or if that’s not possible (due to children, etc.), then take whatever steps you need to keep yourself sane.

But you still have to be a man.

Yes, and we’ll decide what that means for ourselves, not have some tradcon scream and lecture us as to what he ‘thinks’ we should be. You’re free to decide this for yourself MGTOW men.

You still have to take responsibility for your own life.

I am responsible for my life, and right now my responsibility is making sure some self-righteous asshole like you doesn’t get to decide what I should be. And every MGTOW is in the same boat.

You still have to follow your own goals and ideals, and work toward accomplishing something you believe in.

There are many men who are stuck in sucky marriages but who still do great things. They have drive, ambition, and a vision of what they want to accomplish.

We’ve all met men like this. Wouldn’t trade places with a man in that situation ever. And of course, I’m finding this ironic especially since he just finished attacking the Comments from Married Men” at MGTOW.com. A couple of paragraphs ago. Now, who else does this?

Oh yes, Radical Feminists do this!

Big Red

 

Of course, they would prefer to have a good marriage too. But they don’t let their bad marriage stop them from accomplishing their goals. For such a man, the focus is on accomplishments in the world of business or finance or politics or art. Where the money that flows from those accomplishments goes is a secondary consideration. So even if their gold-digging wives or ex-wives are bleeding them dry financially, they keep right on going.

And again no man is right mind would trade places with that guy. And knowing that this trap can be sprung on a man at ANY TIME in a marriage would make anyone think twice about it. Seriously fuck this nobly suffering part, well maybe in my case reading this blog by Lee is punishment enough.

I’m not saying this is a good situation. I’m not saying it’s right for women to leech off of men. Quite the contrary. Some women are indeed blood-sucking gold-diggers. And that is to their great shame.

Yep but hey you lost a leg in that minefield but you’re a man so go in again because society needs you! How stupid do you think I am?

Rather, I’m saying that if your focus is on money, possessions, and property, then a gold-digging wife is a life-ending disaster for you. But if your focus is on accomplishing something good and worthwhile in the world, you can keep being a winner as a man even if you are the loser financially in marriage or in divorce court.

So do what it takes to make your life work. Extricate yourself from a bad marital situation if you can. Protect what assets you can protect. But don’t blame your terrible wife, or that terrible, blood-sucking female race, or those terrible feminazis, if you are a failure as a man. That’s on your shoulders.

No, that’s not on my shoulders you ignorant shit. There are scores of magazines on racks in every supermarket and store that teach women how to put on their best face so men won’t see what they are until it’s too late. However, when such publications for men are released they’re demonized. Yes, folks, Lee is that thick that he doesn’t see that. No point in explaining it to him. But yes you know fellow MGTOW that this is indeed the case. Just look at what’s happened to RooshV. Now I’ll admit my opinions are mixed on RooshV but that doesn’t dismiss the level of harassment RooshV has had to endure even in attempts to warn men about potentially toxic women.

Men must take responsibility for themselves

So to the MGTOW specifically I say: If you want to be single, no problem. That’s your choice.

Damn straight it is, now GET LOST LEE!

But take responsibility for your own life. Do something good and productive with your time, energy, and talents. Don’t let your bad experiences with women be an excuse to check out of society and waste away your life in some isolated man cave.

I do and stop projecting your values about some non existent sky diety on us!

Once again, I speak from experience. I’ve been through the whole thing. When I was young (24, to be exact) and even more foolish than I am today, I married the wrong woman (we were not the best match for each other), and proceeded to have a marriage that was fine at first, but gradually went downhill until it ended in divorce twenty-four years later. By the time the divorce was final, I had spent half of my life in a deteriorating marriage.

Was that my former wife’s fault? It would be nice to be able to blame her. But the fact of the matter is that I was the headstrong young male who pursued her for nine years until she finally agreed to marry me. And though she is, of course, responsible for her own decision to marry me and for whatever she did during the marriage, I can’t avoid responsibility for the fact that I made and pursued the decision to marry her despite many indications that it wasn’t such a great idea.

And when the mismatched marriage finally broke up, it was my job to pick up the pieces of my own life and continue on to accomplish what I am here on earth to do.

Yup, because his experience means that every other male will just MAGICALLY have that happen to him too. And MGTOW is a purpose that men are going to chose. Keep trucking MGTOW despite what Lee just said here you’re enititled to your life.

That’s what it means to be a man. And the original MGTOW philosophy was not about dissing, denigrating, and blaming women, but about achieving one’s best potential as a man, regardless of what women do.

Second time the original MGTOW philosophy has been pushed past by the second generation who wrote a lot more eloquently and intelligently than the original founders did. This does happen sometimes so just lay off with ‘the original founders would be horrified crap” because.

  1. You aint one of them
  2. You’re not MGTOW
  3. Trad Con crap doesn’t fly here

For some men, this will mean being single. For others, it will mean being in a relationship or a marriage with a wog man.

Either way, a man is responsible for his own life. If you make bad choices or get yourself into bad relationships, that is still your responsibility.

I REALLY hope you’re not going into blame mode here because if you are FUCK YOU!

So although I know the men in the Red Pill movement hate to hear it, I’ll say again, as I said at the end of the first article in this series:

Man up, quit complaining, and do the hard work.

No, you fuck off and go be a cuck somewhere else. I and every MGTOW will take as long as we feel it’s required to figure out what we want out of our lives. That won’t be dictated to me by some Bible Thumping Trad Con asswipe who thinks he knows better because some non-existent sky diety quoted by barely literate goat herders said 2000 years ago is a good model for everyone.

If you want to be a man, you have to act like one.

OK, I’m going to be one here. And politely tell you to go have sex with yourself and mind your own business. You’re an idiot and haven’t got a clue what MGTOW is and that’s been clearly written down. You’re not MGTOW you don’t get a say. Your shaming language is pathetic and so are you, Lee.

There that ‘man’ enough for you?

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4 thoughts on “A Response to a Tradcon

  1. Hi Neroke,

    Thanks for taking the time to respond to my MGTOW article. I’ll ignore all the standard Red Pill name-calling and personal attacks and focus on a few of the substantive points you make.

    But first, I’m a little surprised that you think my article is so terrible. I read a whole lot worse while doing the research for my three-article series on the Red Pill movement. Having gone through a milder version of what a lot of Red Pill men have gone through in their relationships with women, I’m far more sympathetic to MGTOW than most outside critics. And if you can’t take a little satire . . . well, that’s your problem, not mine.

    But what really struck me in reading your article is that for the most part, you’re telling MGTOW the same things I am, except from an insider’s perspective rather than from an outsider’s perspective: Get yourself out of bad relationships if you can. Be single if you want to be single. Don’t blame it all on women. Take responsibility for your own self as a man and move on with your life.

    As for all of the things you say I’m avoiding, I had already dealt with most of them in the first two articles in my Red Pill series, on MRA and PUA.

    Now I’ll respond on a few points:

    “I’m an atheist”

    Doesn’t really matter to me. I don’t care if you’re theist, atheist, agnostic, buddhist, rastafarian, or pastafarian. And I don’t think God does either.

    Within a few short centuries after Jesus, Christianity got seriously off track, thinking it’s all about believing the right thing rather than about living a good life—which is what the Bible focuses on. Yes, there are statements in the Bible about believing in Jesus. But traditional Christianity has totally ignored what Jesus himself taught. Read Jesus’ own clearest statement about who goes to eternal life and who doesn’t in Matthew 25:31–46 (The Parable of the Sheep and the Goats, AKA The Judgment of the Nations). There’s not a word in it about belief or about faith in Jesus. It’s all about how people treat their fellow human beings. And it applies to people of all nations, not just to Christians.

    It’s because I’m a Christian that I care far more about how people live than about what they believe. I wrote a whole article on my blog about how atheists can go to heaven just as easily as theists as long as they live a good life with some care and concern for their fellow human beings according to a decent set of principles.

    So I don’t really care much if you’re an atheist. I care about whether you live a decent life according to some set of principles that says, at the most basic, that you should treat other people the way you would want to be treated. Even if you don’t believe in God and an afterlife, that still makes life better both for yourself and for humanity as a species.

    Of course, it’s your business, not mine, how you choose to run your life. You’re the one who has to take the consequences for whatever choices you make, and whatever actions you take. And no, I’m not talking about being roasted over a spit in hell. I don’t believe that either. I’m talking about making your life a lot harder than it needs to be if you do stupid, selfish, and greedy things.

    But you seem to be a decent person despite all the bluster. I suspect you have all of that fairly well under control by now.

    Which leads to:

    “We’re just venting”

    I get that. And I do deal with it in the articles.

    But reading the Red Pill and MGTOW forums, it was hard to find the “adult” Red Pillers in the room. Where are the men saying, “Don’t get mad at all women. Get mad at the one who screwed you over”? Where are the men saying, “Let it all out! And then get over it and move on”?

    Yes, you can find these things if you dig into some of the MGTOW websites and video channels. But you can find a whole lot more about how terrible, selfish, and destructive women are, and how men’s problems today are due to the feminism and gynocentrism that have taken over modern society.

    Bullshit.

    But that’s the next point.

    To finish up with this one: If you’re going to do your group therapy for new Red Pillers in public, and the adults seem to have left the room and buried their more mature perspectives where most casual observers of the movement never find them, what do you expect your movement to look like to outsiders?

    And you can say all you want that you don’t care about what outsiders think of you. But if you want to bring about change in society, it isn’t going to work very well to project an image of screaming victimhood. The people who might otherwise work with you to make those changes will just distance themselves from you and tune you out.

    “Today’s society is anti-male”

    First of all, objectively, this just isn’t true. Men still occupy most of the top positions in government, industry, and society. Men still make far more money and wield far more power than women do. We are very far from a society in which women rule and men grovel at their feet.

    When outsiders hear Red Pillers yell about how women are running the world and oppressing men, it makes the Red Pill movement look ridiculous, because looking at the big picture, it’s simply not true.

    However, there certainly has been a pendulum swing on the gender front in recent decades.

    Given that throughout recorded history men have been ascendant over women, that’s not too surprising. If anything, the current pendulum swing against all that history of men being on top and women being on the bottom is rather mild.

    And as always, the pendulum will continue to swing until society reaches a new equilibrium on gender roles and relations.

    I predict that in another fifty or sixty years today’s sitcoms in which men are bumbling idiots and women are smart, savvy achievers will look like dated period pieces just as TV shows from the 1950s now look like dated period pieces. And more seriously, the current imbalances in the divorce courts will be a thing of the past as well. It takes time and a lot of very hard work to correct the wrongs and the overreactions of society and the legal system.

    Meanwhile, men in today’s society can still live a good life. Yes, some men will get screwed over by women. And some women will get screwed over by men. Lots of people screw over lots of other people. Welcome to reality.

    Personally, about all I have left from my first three decades of adulthood is my beliefs, my relationship with my adult children, and my rather extensive personal library. Most of the rest is gone. I had to rebuild my life from scratch. So don’t tell me I don’t know what I’m talking about. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt.

    It may surprise you to hear that all your shouting aside, I agree with most of what you say in your “rebuttal” to my article. I’m just a little mystified that you seem to think I’ve made a terrible attack on MGTOW. In fact, even though I engaged in some satire along the way, I’m basically telling MGTOW the same thing you’re telling them: Don’t blame women. Take responsibility for your own life.

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  2. Pingback: Response to a MGTOW Critique | Spiritual Insights for Everyday Life

  3. Wow Lee
    Somehow this response ended up in my spam folder. Although I’m not entirely certain if it deserved to be there or not. Although I noticed in the blog you posted that didn’t stop you from suggesting I’d done this on purpose

    You deserved the name calling…Lee!
    Yes, the article is terrible, in your mind we may be telling MGTOW the same thing. Unlike you though I was able to stay away from shaming language

    “I’m an atheist” Because there is no god, nobody is coming to save me or anyone else. That’s on me to do for myself.

    “We’re just venting”

    Here…Lee let’s just show you a couple of numbers
    2013 The largest MGTOW site on Facebook had 1,300 people in it, today that number is over 28,000
    In 2013 the MGTOW forum on Reddit was around 4,000 last time I checked now it was 55,624

    So you can do math right? Most of these men are recent and SURPRISE most of them haven’t processed what they need to process. So golly gee it really sucks that most of what you saw upsets you so much. That tends to happen when NINETY PLUS PERCENT OF THEM haven’t gone through the Red Pill Rage.

    What part of that MATH doesn’t make sense to you? Not that me or anyone else there is doing anything to please your sensibilities.

    “Today’s society is anti-male”

    HOLY C**P!!!…Excuse me I just gotta bash my head into a brick wall right now

    Not..responsible…for…a…womens…LIFE…CHOICE!!!

    Did you even TRY to watch the Red Pill Movie?
    NONE of any male reproductive rights are controlled by men
    We make up the lions share of violent, no matter how many feminist studies papers try to fudge the stats. And NOBODY is making any attempt to interfere with women trying to move up

    GO AHEAD feel free to find this patriarchal committee that’s doing this
    And as far as I know we don’t have women running the world, we do have self-interested cucks doing this though.

    Go ahead there Lee SHOW US ALL how equal and balanced
    Divorce Laws, Domestic Abuse Laws, Sentencing, Homelessness, Child Custody, False Accusations

    Yeah, go ahead there Lee tell me how it’s such a fucking mans world!

    Oh man I so just wanna tell you something rude right now. You’re not MGTOW and it’s VERY CLEAR that at very best you went in with confirmation bias and only saw what you wanted to see. MGTOW isn’t here to please women they don’t get a say and quite frankly I nor likely any other MGTOW who reads this is going to get magically swayed into going to a system that clearly exploits men. MGTOW isn’t going away and unless you start addressing the issues and STAY AWAY FROM THE SHAMING LANGUAGE. It’s only getting bigger

    Oh Yeah I CLEARLY SAID that women have always been women in my blog at least Twice, kinda liked how you ignored that

    Like

    1. Hi Neroke,

      Thanks for pulling my comment out of the spam folder. My apologies for assuming you had deleted it. I’ve made an edit to the post on my blog to that effect.

      Just because I engaged in some satire (“shaming language”), that doesn’t mean you and I aren’t basically saying the same thing to MGTOW. Just that you’re saying it from a more sympathetic insider’s perspective and I’m saying it from a more skeptical outsider’s perspective.

      Since when did men become so thin-skinned that they can’t take some salt and satire? In my life, I’ve endured verbal abuse far worse than any of the satire and plain language I dished out in those articles, often when I was at serious low points in my life, and I’m still standing.

      I recognize that many men need MGTOW to sort themselves out after bad experiences with women. Hence its growing popularity. I’m not saying MGTOW is useless. Only that it does not represent a balanced perspective on men, women, and society. After getting it out of their system, men need to return to a more balanced view. Fears of women and gynocentrism taking over society do not make for rational thinking.

      Yes, I watched the Red Pill movie. Before writing the articles I spent many, many hours watching videos and reading articles and forums from different perspectives, both inside and outside of the Red Pill community.

      I have also been through the divorce courts. And I can tell you from personal experience that not every man has to bend over and take it in the ass there. I was able to achieve what mattered most to me in the divorce, which was to remain an active father to my two sons (my daughter was at that time entering into adult life) and to cut all financial ties to my ex-wife. Yes, I had to take on the marital debt. But for me, that was an acceptable price to pay for getting what I wanted out of the divorce. To this day I take great satisfaction in knowing that having an active and involved father during their teenage years helped give my sons the foundation they needed to become solid, self-respecting young men.

      I don’t deny that many men get screwed in the divorce courts. And I agree with the MRA that it’s gone too far, and there is serious need for reform. But the divorce courts just aren’t as universally bad for men as Red Pillers paint them.

      What bothers me most about MGTOW stuff is the lack of perspective. The sense is that because I had this bad experience with women and the courts, and all my buddies in the MGTOW community had this bad experience with women and the courts, that means everyone is having the same bad experience with women, the courts, and society in general.

      That’s simply not true.

      And that unbalanced, echo-chamber view about women and society among MGTOW makes it hard for outsiders to take them seriously.

      Like

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