A little over a week ago I had a sponsee that relapsed. That in of itself isn’t at all that unusual what really got me was that this man relapsed over a woman that not only was actively using but was using needles. Again this wouldn’t have been so bad except this sponsee then choose avoidance in order to deal with me rather than just calling me the next morning, even though I had caught him drunk on the street.
I decided I needed to write him an open letter here…https://wordpress.com/post/84963613/35/ and of course left messages at every conceivable place for him to respond. Not surprisingly perhaps I got a text back and that was it.
I can appreciate that as a guy you get lonely and you have needs. I got them too I didn’t go out after women that are actively using. This guy though hadn’t been to meetings in months and at the same time never ever except one time in passing ever discussed this problem with me or anyone else. Naturally, of course, this was the issue that took him out. When I went to his Facebook account (Something I should’ve done a lot earlier) I saw all that I needed to know. It’s very unfortunate that there’s very little if any support for men in this situation. The support that is there is very feminized (As in it’s women telling men how to be men) or has been chastised for being misogynistic or sexist. PUA, MRA, MGTOW all of these philosophies offer solutions that various segments of the population would really like men not to hear. And as for bringing this up in a meeting? Well, that might be OK if it’s a small meeting where you know everyone. Bigger meetings are pressed for time and well what if that woman over there disapproves of what you’re dealing with? I have seen men with these issues get shut down or even run out of meetings.
This issue and the fact that tonight at a meeting I quite literally had to deal with yet ANOTHER guy in the program who’s getting the run around by his over visitation of his kids. Plus not to mention what occurred in the previous post put me in the mood to just say.
“You know what? Fuck your approval” I’m going to talk about this and I’m going to be public about it so deal with it! This is for the men out there that need this
So what to do?
First a good question guys? When you walked into whatever 12-step group you belong to would you have dated you? Be honest here…Then WHY the hell would be looking in a place like this to find “The one” That’s not to say that women haven’t seriously turned their lives around with the program because they have . And yes things can and do happen and I will cover this later.
But WAIT there’s a 1000000000000% certainty that there’s going to be some person out there that’s going to respond to how they know this couple that’s made it work or how their particular relationship has now caused them to shit rainbows and burp Shakespearean sonnets every 2 minutes. Two things about that
1. That couple that’s been together all those year they AINT you! I know a couple like this they’ve been together for decades now and its family
2. The exception PROVES the rule
Done trying to prove how you’re a unique special snowflake now?
OK, let’s get on with this these are some rules that I personally follow, they’re not in order but I strongly suggest you follow them. Remember you’re dealing with a cunning, baffling, crippling disease and you came in because you were powerless over..?…and your life became unmanageable
1. Know your objective
What was your purpose for finding this group? You need look no further than Step 1 for that. Freedom from active addiction, freedom from alcohol, gambling etc. You go to these groups not only to get clean but stay clean and if you work the steps and traditions heck maybe you can even accomplish something really meaningful in your life. The purpose of the meetings ISN’T to meet that smoking hot babe and try to get into her pants. Incidentally that smoking hot babe? She didn’t end up in the rooms by accident either, keep that in mind. You’re here for recovery! Clear enough for you?
2. Avoid getting chummy with any of the women here until they’ve been around for a while
This goes TRIPLE for the newcomer women at meetings! You don’t know her story, you don’t know her issues and you really have no idea whether she’s just here because she was court ordered or is simply doing it because of pressure from people around her. You want to talk about a landmine we’re talking psychological, medical, financial, relationship issues that you have no idea about. Yeah, she looks great and well good on her maintaining appearances. I have seen so many guys run into long term problems by getting involved with women like this.
3. If they’re in a women’s treatment facility also don’t get chummy with them until AFTER they leave
I’m gonna catch a little heat for this one but well feel free to call someone who gives a shit if this upsets you! I’ve encountered women’s treatment facilities that are run by women that are outright misandrists. Not only that any of these places worth their salt will have man restrictions for very good reasons. But for the guys here some (Note I said SOME) of these places are run by women with some serious man-hating issues. This attitude can and does affect the attitude of the women in them. You want to deal with potential false harassment issues, how about false sexual assault? Don’t laugh or blow this off I’ve personally witnessed more than a just a few guys get caught in this. A lot of these guys didn’t get out of it clean, some didn’t get out alive. Plus depending on the area you live in the rumor mill may not allow you to go meetings yourself and discuss this stuff in anonymity. If they go to a place like this don’t associate with her PERIOD! Once they leave you still have to feel her out and she will eventually find her own program. Simply put too many risks involved and not worth the potential trouble.
4. If she’s a mom find out about the ex
Is he still actively using? Was he abusive? A deadbeat dad? You need to keep in mind that you’re only getting her side of the story here. But knowing this can save you a whole lot of headache. I’ve run out of fingers and toes on how many guys I know that hooked up with a mom in the program and then you get tales about the ex. Not here for stories most of them are not good the PUA community has all sorts of warnings about dating single moms. You also need to keep in mind that she herself may well only be into you for your resources.
5. Never have sex with a program woman without a condom, use and dispose of your condoms in a secure way
Let me say this again if you’re offended and didn’t get the message on point #3 I don’t care if you like what I’m posting or suggesting go call someone who cares!
You have no idea where this woman was before she came in, There was this statement I heard more than a few times about women in meetings “Do you really want to get involved with a woman who was possibly sucking some dirtbags dick to support her habit less than X time ago?” You have no idea what she has and yes woman can and do lie about this frequently. Also if you’re a guy with money or lots of resources Paternity Fraud simply cannot be just brushed off here. When you’re done you take your condoms go to the bathroom and flush them down the toilet, SEE them go down the tiolet and away. You use your own condoms not hers EVER again see Paternity Fraud as to why. You need to keep in mind that it takes just one of those squiggly little sperm to put you on the hook for 18 years of child support. And as it currently stands you have no legal recourse here if she decides to keep it you pay child support period!
6. Look for Red Flags
Women with multiple kids from different dads and no visible means of support especially if she’s now in the program. Any woman with a restraining order filed against an ex for any reason especially if she isn’t forthright about telling you right away. There’s lots of these you get a red flag I strongly suggest you move on to someone else, I don’t care how damn hot she is!
7. No means No period!
Anytime she says no you stop period, for any reason. This even applies if she says stop in middle of sex and then changes her mind a few minutes later. It’s done you walk away you don’t need the possibility of her changing her mind and deciding to charge you with something after the fact. Because well with the authorities she said no right?
8. On a one night stand always take her out for coffee/breakfast in the morning
This is a watch your ass kind of move, the issue of buyers regret or deciding you assaulted her after the fact. That accusation will be a hell of lot harder to prove if you’re seen on camera snuggling with her the morning after. Keep the receipt of said coffee/breakfast as well.
9. Don’t have a relationship with a women with a boyfriend that’s also in the program
These have never ended well as far as I know. relapse isn’t unheard of also what meetings are you going to go to? Seriously, much like you weren’t fooling anyone when you were using people will also know that you’re seeing her. Someone WILL talk and it will get heated, you really have no idea how the other guy will react when he finds out. Besides do you really want to get involved with a woman that doesn’t respect another mans recovery like that?
10. Don’t have a relationship with a woman that’s a chronic relapser
This may sound obvious but she keeps relapsing for a reason you know. What that reason is well do you really want to get close to her and find out. Don’t shit yourself here you’re likely not going to be the guy that rescues her and helps get her clean for good
11. Have a separate and independent support group away from hers
Her brother shouldn’t be your sponsor, her best friend probably shouldn’t be in the same home group as yours. Look at your immediate support group, now ask yourself if this other guy can be counted upon of things get shitty or ugly between you and the girl. If you cannot answer yes about that guy he can’t be counted on this needs to be as black and white as possible.
You have separate home groups and you also need to keep in mind that if you need to talk about your relationship in the meeting that there’s not someone there that will violate anonymity and go and tell her what you said. This is what a sponsor is for this sponsor should in no real and immediate way be connected with the woman. I’ve witnessed scenarios as well where her support group has come into a meeting and shame a guy in the meeting. Which leads me to…
12. Don’t discuss your relationship in a meeting unless you’re 100% sure of everyone in the meeting
Violation of anonymity is common here and there’s no way of telling for sure if the person who relayed the information didn’t get the context of what you were sharing properly
13. At the FIRST sign of inappropriate behavior leave!
Has she suddenly stopped going to meetings, begun hanging around with old using friends and going back to old haunts? Are there periods of time that she can’t or won’t answer about? Finding drug paraphernalia around? Do you hear her talking to other people about how shitty the meetings and the people in the meetings are? Have you seen her in a state where you weren’t sure if she was clean or not? There are a lot of these, don’t be afraid to ask questions LOTS of questions if she cannot or will not answer these questions directly then there’s a good chance she’s gone back out. You need to look after yourself here and you don’t need the possible hassles of being a woman that’s back out. YOUR recovery can and will eventually be called into question, not to mention the insanity that being with a person that’s using will bring into your life.
14. Don’t go to meetings because this woman or group of women is at the meeting
Go back to point #1 if this isn’t obvious enough for you. Recovery is your main focus in meetings, you’re not there to impress the fuck out of this newcomer hottie.
15. Avoid associating with known 13 steppers
My rule is that if you’re one of those guys that’s in meetings for the purpose of meeting women I don’t want to fucking know you, I don’t want to know your story, don’t want you in my support group and I sure as hell don’t want you as a sponsor or sponsee. Yeah this sounds cold and cruel and it is! Let someone else sponsor them you really don’t need the melodrama and issues that come from having a guy like this around you. I had at one time THE 13 stepper of a given area in my home group once upon a time he was funny and likable enough but he brought a lot of unnecessary crap into in the meeting. Plus you run the risk of getting sucked into his issues. And you really don’t want to know what happens when you and him are hot for the same woman! This issue can cause you to relapse so just walk the fuck away. If possible stop even going to that meeting. DO NOT attempt to be the White Knight in this scenario.
16. Know who the White Knights are
That guy that’s always hanging around that hot chick but not sleeping with her. That guy with lots of female friends in the meetings. There are lots of examples of this having had more than a couple of run ins with guys like this when I had run ins with women (Especially good looking ones) in the program. You need to keep in mind too that conflicts with these guys can even happen months after the fact.
So there you go a few suggestions from a guy that’s not only seen these things happen but actually made some of these mistakes myself. Some of these suggestions are just as viable if you happen to be female but well this list is for the guys not the girls.
Oh one last thing if you feel somehow compelled to point out that not all women are like this? You know NAWALT?
Well there are enough of them that are that a list like is very necessary.
I don’t give a shit if you find what I wrote offensive or if you disapprove, I certainly don’t give a rats ass if you think I’m a misogynist or not. You would never ever just run in blindly into a minefield and that’s exactly what you’re doing with women in the program.
As for something just happening? Well that can and does happen that doesn’t excuse you completely throwing away all logic and not taking precautions anyway.
Which brings me to my last point…Know when to walk away that will vary from man to man but when it’s time to pull the chord pull it.
Just remember one day at time